33 luhrs - good deal or not

[Martin Harmer]

Dear Fellow Luhrs Owners:

I currently own a gas powered 1994 Luhrs Tournament which is kept in Point Pleasant NJ. I like the boat very much and it is in very nice condition (600 and 1100hrs on the engines respectively). I am considering an upgrade. I have negotiated the purchase of a brand new 2005 left over 33 convertible for $215,000 with full factory waranties. It has 370 Cummins diesels, full electronics including auto pilot. They are giving me $70,000 for my boat as a trade. The new boat is located in Boston, and they agreed to exchange boats at a location mid way between us. Many other newish or left over 33's are listed at much higher asking prices on yachtworld (249-289k) so I think this is a good deal, but I am nervous. I'm inspecting the boat next week. I would appreciate knowing what others think about this deal, as well as hearing about any experiences with the 33.

Thanks!

Martin

[logadmin]

A survey will go a long way in squashing some of your concerns. Having a full factory warranty on a boat for that price sounds pretty good...

[Martin Harmer]

Thank your for your wise suggestion to get a survey. It is a particularly good idea since the boat has been sitting for 3 years (it has 40 hours from going to boat shows), and as you say it will also provide a market assessment. I will let you know the results if interested.

[HisDoghouse]

Martin,

I purchased a 2004 38 Open as the first owner in 2006. Because I was buying the boat "new," I didn't think I needed to get a survey as the boat would be covered by the new boat warrantees. That is a mistake I would not ever make again. I had a "punch out" list that was very long, and my local dealer resolved the issues - eventually. FYI, when I closed on the boat it had 150 hours on the engines.

A survey will protect you (to a point) by identifying potential or actual issues that require resolution before you close on your boat. If I ever have the opportunity to purchase another boat in the future (new or used), I will have a full survey done just to save on some future aggravation.

One thing I can say with absolute certainty is that I have received SUPERB service from the folks at Luhrs corporate (to distinguish them from my local dealer). They have supported me during two instances where I have had significant issues (a posting is forthcoming), as well as taking care of me with other less costly concerns.

I have been completely satisfied with the folks at Luhrs, and with their backing, you can rest assured that even if you buy from a dealer that is not as customer-oriented as you might like, you will be taken care of.

Joe

[Martin Harmer]

Joe,

Thank you for your thought and for sharing your story. I have already contacted a surveyor to have a full survey conducted. It is certainly reassuring to hear that Luhrs main was very supportive, especially since I will need to have all follow-up warranty work done at the nearest dealership in NJ (Clarke's Landing) which is not where I will be buying the boat from.

Martin

[bimini_tom]

Hi, my boat is in Point Pleasant, what marina are you in?

[Martin Harmer]

Crystal Point Yacht Club....how about you?

[bimini_tom]

I am in Garden State Marina, bought a used 2004 36 SX last August. I like the ride and the room. I agree with the survey idea and good luck with the purchase. Lots of good deals now with the market on the down side. Do you fish?

[Martin Harmer]

Small world. I recall that my wife and I actually met you in your marina last year and you invited us on your new boat to view it. You got it at a great buy, if I remember correctly. Maybe we'll see you around. Have a great season.

[Islandfly]

I agree with the above post, get a survey from a known surveyor and have him/she go over the vessel carefully. But the best advice I can give you is to

NEGOTIATE hard on the price. Vessel like the one you are looking at are dropping in price especially here in Florida. Diesel prices are high, in Florida we are suffering from the tourist season not been as busy as we have been in the last few years, we are also getting heavily regulated by NOAA Fisheries when it comes to charter operations. NEGOTIATE dealers are having to wake up and face reality that prices must come down or they are going to have inventory on their yards for a while.

You cannot go wrong with the Luhrs line, great company, great vessel, NEGOTIATE DOWN...

Capt. R. Reyes
Someday Came Fishing Charters
Indian Rocks Bch, Florida

[Martin Harmer]

Thank you for your sound advice captain. I certainly want to take advantage of the current buyers market and negotiate as far down as I can go. However, having to trade in my boat puts me at a disadvantage on that score, since it sticks them with another boat to sell. I'll settle for a good deal, even if I can't get a great deal. I found a great surveyor and I'm hoping he can guide me on the pricing since he knows actual sale prices, which I don't. I'm figuring the dealer is assuming my boat is only worth 50-55k (wholesale) to him, so I'm getting the new (2005) 33 luhrs at 195-200k, which for a new boat with full warranties seems like a pretty good buy - I hope!. I do love my luhrs, so I'm quite excited about getting a new one at a reasonable price. Thanks again for your input.

Martin

[Maximillion]

Martin Harmer,

How did it go with the buy of the boat/ Did you end up getting the boat?

[Martin Harmer]

Everything is moving forward for us to buy the boat. The surveyor is examining it this week. Luhrs main and Cummins confirmed that the warranties would be honored on this 2005 left over. If all goes well we will take our trade up to Somerset MA in mid May and return with our new boat. We're excited!:patriot:

[Martin Harmer]

Just as I thought all was well the following happened. My local Cummins service rep in NJ ran the serial numbers on the engines to check all was OK with the warranty, but discovered that one of the engines had been registered as having an in-service repair in May 2005 which triggered the start of the warranty, even though the boat has never been sold. Further investigation has revealed that the repair was authorized in St Augustine by Luhrs main before the boat was even delivered to the sellers dealership in MA. The seller is working on fixing the mistake. I'm assuming this mistake will be easily rectified, but it goes to show how you have to check everything yourself before you buy. One of my main reasons for buying this left over boat is the warranty, so this is a major issue. Perhaps luhrsadmin or customer service can help sort this out? The engine number on this Cummins 370 is 46366342

[logadmin]

I'll talk to Mark in CS about this on Thursday...

[Maximillion]

Martin Harmer,

I did some research this morning and there is nothing that was approved by the service department to do any engine work on the boat. We have an engine manufacturer representative come to the factory and run every boat and sign it off before we send it out to the dealer. If there was a problem with the engine when we were testing it, It should not ahave started the warranty on the engines.

Let me know if the selling person gets this handled. If not, I will call Cummins myself and get to the bottom of it.

Thanks

[Maximillion]

Martin Harmer,

In the thread just before this one you stated that Cummins had already said everything was OK with the warranty. What happen that changed that?

Just trying to get some info to help you out.

[Martin Harmer]

Thank you so much for looking into this and for offering to get involved with Cummins directly. In my first discussion with the local Cummins rep he told me that the warranty should be fine as long as the boat had not been titled. That was when I thought all was well. He then followed up with another call and asked for the engine numbers to run in the system, which is when this issue came to light. I need to get an update from the seller on where matters stand and get back to you. Do you have a phone number or an e-mail address that I can contact you directly?

Thanks again

Martin

[logadmin]

Mark's direct line is 9048272020 or robinson@luhrs.com.

[Maximillion]

Martin Harmer,

Did Cummins ever get back to you on the hours on the motor?

[Martin Harmer]

It is all a mess and time to throw in the towel. We, as buyers, should not be put through such a painful ordeal to determine whether or not a left over boat which is advertised with "full warranties" actually has the warranty claimed.

[bimini_tom]

Some things take a bit more time than you are willing to wait. BUT, this may be a deal that should not be passed up. Only you can determine that. Hate to see you by pass a deal that may be worth it in the end.

Good luck,

[Maximillion]

Martin Harmer,

What is the latest from Cummins? Have they given you an answer yet?

[Martin Harmer]

Since you ask. The Cummins customer service rep sent us the official copy of the warranty conditions which stated clearly that the engine warranty would only stay valid if the hours on the engine were less than 50. As it turns out, the broker/seller Sam Jaber of Yacht Management Group had lied to us about the hours and said that they were less than 50, when in reality they were over 50 on both engines. Jaber also lied to Cummins about the hours. Jaber also misrepresented many other items on the boat and reneged on items on the punch list. In addition he ignored all of the issues revealed on the day of the sea trial survey by the surveyor. He also tried to change the conditions of the agreement after we we had it all agreed to in writing. We were not happy with any of this (to put it mildly) and officially cancelled the sale on May 8 within the terms of the purchase and sales agreement which we had every right to do so. Since then we have been trying to get our $11,000 deposit back without success. We have not heard from him in 10 days. We have hired two attorneys (in PA and MA) to get our deposit money back. The attorneys say that what he is doing is totally illegal and may also be criminal. I can see why Jaber and partner sold their Luhrs dealership with this type of unprofessional service and dishonest behavior. Everyone who has had an association with them (including the new Luhrs dealership) says that they were untrustworthy (to put it mildly). I hope Luhrs main will feel some sense of responsibility to help out the buyer victims (us) in this case by putting some pressure on this disreputable seller to return our deposit in full asap. Buyer beware. It's such a shame because we were really looking forward to getting a new Luhrs boat - but we never anticipated this.

[bimini_tom]

Martin, I am extremely disturbed by your experience. I guess it is because I met you last year and I saw your enthusiasm towards boating. I wish you the best of luck in recovering your deposit and finding another deal.

[Esquire]

Martin,
I would highly recommend looking into seeing if you can get a criminal investigation/prosecution going against this a...hole. As a civil attorney I enjoyed representing persons such as yourself in these kinds of lawsuits, now as a prosecutor I really enjoy throwing their fraudulent rearends in jail... bottom line is while you can threaten to sue someone for money it really gets their attention and puts on the pressure if they are looking at losing their freedom by a criminal prosecution.
Good luck..

[Martin Harmer]

I appreciate your comments Esquire. I presume that you do not work anywhere near Somerset Massachusetts or I would hire you in a shot! I'll let you know how it goes. After my posting the Luhrs folks have been pushing him to give the money back, which is much appreciated and appears to have had some effect. The broker/seller Jaber did e-mail me yesterday and said that he was still figuring out how much to deduct from our deposit to cover all of his expenses in getting the boat ready for our viewing and sea trial (fuel, wax, bottom paint, launch etc.). This guy has some nerve! Will keep you posted.

Regards,

Martin

[Martin Harmer]

I appreciate the concern Tom...all the best. Martin (Stay tuned!)

[dave01]

For the record my wife and I own the dealership now in New England. Sam Jaber or the former owner have no connection to us whatsoever. Our company name is McShane Yacht Sales. The former dealer was called Scituate Yacht Co. If anyone in our sales area has a concern or question please call us directly. I have spoken to Mr Harmer, it is a shame he has to go thru such an ordeal when buying a new boat should be such an exciting time.

[Martin Harmer]

As new owners of the dealership you are making a smart move by changing your dealership name and publicly dissociating yourself with the former owners/partners Jaber and company.

I have still not received any of my $11,000 deposit back and we have started to take legal action in MA.

My attorney determined that Yacht Management Group Inc. does not exist as a legal entity. It was dissolved by the Supreme Court of Massachusetts in May 2007 for failure to comply with regulatory procedures. Nothing is real with these folks!

I have finally got my beloved 1994 Luhrs 32 back in the water complete with new generator, so hopefully I can now enjoy the rest of the boating season and let the lawyers seek justice on my behalf.

[dave01]

Martin. if we can be of any service let us know. As you are in another dealers area of customer care you should check with them on any new Luhrs. If you would like McShane Yacht Sales to help you in a search for a used Luhrs please let us know. We are building our reputation one customer at a time here in New England. I want to state this publicly so the world knows who we are. Best of luck, Dave.

[Martin Harmer]

For those of you that may have followed this story which started almost two years ago, you may be interested to know that Sam Jaber was put on trial last Friday January 15 for Fraud for not returning the $11,000 deposit we gave him to look at a 33 Luhrs. The judge will make a ruling within 30 days. I will report the decision if anyone is interested. While this has been a long, costly and painful process for me and my wife, I am confident that Justice will prevail in the end.

[seacaballo]

Martin, I have followed your ordeal on the quest to buy that 33' convertible and I will make some comments. First do you still have your 32' Tornament?
I have a 92 Tornament power by Yanmar 6LPA 315 and love this boat. I have friends that own 34' convertibles and they tell my that their boat has a very small bow and does not take waves very elegantly, The molded steps to the flybridge takes a lot of cabin space and it rolls excesibly due to how tall the flybridge is.
I can appreciate all the benefits of a brand new boat but I would not pay that amount of money for a 33' or 34' when you can get the same boat you have with low hour diesels for les than half of what they were asking for an old new boat. In other words if you can get your deposit back you are better of because I don't think that you would have been happy with that 33. The interior is narrow and is no wonder that Luhrs discontinue it. Good luck in whatever you do
Pedro

[Martin Harmer]

Dear Pedro,

I completely agree with you. We ended up keeping our 32 Tournament (Flybridge) and absolutely love it. We are having it repowered this winter with new Crusader 8.1 engines, along with new digital Murphy Powerview guages (which display all engine info including fuel consumption), all new through hull fittings, new (larger 1 1/2 inch) shafts, dripless shaft couplings, new (larger) props and a new 5212 Garmin touch screen nav station on the helm. The 32 Tournament is a great design and we're happy to be keeping it.

Martin

[irishrogue]

how many 33s did they even make/sell??? that boat disappeared as quickly as it appeared. i m still not even sure why the rebadged the 34 convertible into the 33 in 2005....i love my 32 open but i dont understand their strategy to rename models sometimes to make them "smaller" and sometimes "bigger (380 to 400...)....they really need to call me during planning/design/construction/marketing/seatrial....

you are better off with a tried and true 32! why upgrade shaft size?? if you are increasing has hp, i would look at just a better quality shaft like moving up to aquamet 22 from 17 or 22....put the cash towards dripless shaft logs or props....

[seacaballo]

Martin Have you checked into repoweing with diesels. The 32' is a very nice boat with diesel engines. 45% better fuel economy, less chance of a fire and a better resale if you want to move up or sell your boat.
Cummins has a remanufactured program were they sell brand new 6BTs at remanufactued prices, you may even be able to use your existing trannies.
If you like your 32 and plan on keeping it is worth considering.

Pedro

[dave01]

I had the pleasure of meeting martin and his wife at the New York Show. Truly nice people that didnt deserve to go thru everything that happened to them. But justice usually prevails, best of luck to them.

[Martin Harmer]

On January 29, 2009 Sam Jaber was found guilty of fraud, breach of contract and conducting of unlawful and deceptive practices by a trial court of Massachusetts. We were awarded a judgment of $38,485.32 against him, which included $11,000 for the original deposit which he never returned, $22,000 in damages for fraud, $3,348.55 in attorney fees, $1,:)797.37 in interest and $117.40 in court costs. The judge slammed him in the ruling as a total liar and a phony "Captain". Justice at last! Although it remains to be seen what we actually recover from this creep.